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Post by hankey on May 28, 2019 12:39:12 GMT -5
it's awful funny that people have asked me about him puking I'll take 'things that never happened' for $500 Alex..... Let me guess - and then everyone clapped? |
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Post by hankey on May 28, 2019 12:41:12 GMT -5
Marcus Hayes was on sports talk radio the other day and he had a lot to say about the McNabb hall of fame discussion. No I can't read it either and I'm not paying for it, but I got to quickly skim the gist of the article. He probably says nothing I disagree with. Again - if you don't like his public persona, fine. But I'm sick of half our fan base piling on the guy whenever he opens his mouth, regardless of what comes out of it, and offering no real analysis of his playing career apart from 'puking.' It's lame and pathetic. |
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Post by eyrie on May 28, 2019 13:53:56 GMT -5
There have been three contributors to this thread other than yourself.
Nephillymike - "He is our best QB of all-time but is not a HOF."
Me - "He's certainly one of our best ever players"
Gadgetrick - "I don't have any hate for McNabb at all. I was a fan--still have a jersey"
So I'm failing to see where the hate for McNabb is on here.
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Post by hankey on May 28, 2019 14:34:17 GMT -5
There have been three contributors to this thread other than yourself. Nephillymike - "He is our best QB of all-time but is not a HOF." Me - "He's certainly one of our best ever players" Gadgetrick - "I don't have any hate for McNabb at all. I was a fan--still have a jersey" So I'm failing to see where the hate for McNabb is on here. Let's try a different angle. When people who aren't Eagles fans talk about Eagles fans, and the only thing they have to say is 'but they booed Santa Claus!' - Do you think they're douchebag haters, or do you think they're making a valid point worthy of discussion? Right. That's how I feel when an Eagles fan's first comment about McNabb has the word 'puke' in it, regardless of whether or not a paragraph later you remind me you don't hate him. Rick's a hater, plain and simple. I don't necessarily think you and Mike are, but at times he has gone into hater mode during discussion. You seriously can't deny a large portion of our fan base have an irrational disdain for the guy. |
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Post by gadgetrick on May 28, 2019 16:34:20 GMT -5
it's awful funny that people have asked me about him puking I'll take 'things that never happened' for $500 Alex..... Let me guess - and then everyone clapped? You really are a piece of work.... |
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Post by gadgetrick on May 28, 2019 16:35:28 GMT -5
There have been three contributors to this thread other than yourself. Nephillymike - "He is our best QB of all-time but is not a HOF." Me - "He's certainly one of our best ever players" Gadgetrick - "I don't have any hate for McNabb at all. I was a fan--still have a jersey" So I'm failing to see where the hate for McNabb is on here. Well, if someone doesn't agree with him, apparently, that makes them a hater. That's his, "logic". |
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Post by gadgetrick on May 28, 2019 16:37:08 GMT -5
There have been three contributors to this thread other than yourself. Nephillymike - "He is our best QB of all-time but is not a HOF." Me - "He's certainly one of our best ever players" Gadgetrick - "I don't have any hate for McNabb at all. I was a fan--still have a jersey" So I'm failing to see where the hate for McNabb is on here. Let's try a different angle. When people who aren't Eagles fans talk about Eagles fans, and the only thing they have to say is 'but they booed Santa Claus!' - Do you think they're douchebag haters, or do you think they're making a valid point worthy of discussion? Right. That's how I feel when an Eagles fan's first comment about McNabb has the word 'puke' in it, regardless of whether or not a paragraph later you remind me you don't hate him. Rick's a hater, plain and simple. I don't necessarily think you and Mike are, but at times he has gone into hater mode during discussion. You seriously can't deny a large portion of our fan base have an irrational disdain for the guy. And again, it's obvious you need to go back to school and learn a thing or two about reading. Especially since the first thing I wrote was not, in fact, he puked as you seem to believe. I'm a hater even though I explained how I'm actually a fan of the guy. I mentioned what OTHER PEOPLE said and that makes me a hater. Ok, I can see how your math works here. It must be a burden to be the only person in the world who truly gets it. SMH... |
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Post by eyrie on May 28, 2019 16:39:52 GMT -5
You need to re-read Rick's first post again.
The puking incident isn't mentioned until half way through his post, and even then it is in the context that it is what a casual fan will most likely recall of McNabb's career. Not what Rick recalls, or what Eagles fans recall, but casual fans. So I can't find anything to suggest that Rick is a hater but it's very easy to see where he has explicitly stated that he isn't.
There is a part of our fanbase that doesn't like McNabb, probably because they still wish we'd taken Ricky Williams. They're entitled to their opinion, just as I'm entitled to my opinion that they're wrong.
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Post by hankey on May 28, 2019 19:06:05 GMT -5
There is a part of our fanbase that doesn't like McNabb, probably because they still wish we'd taken Ricky Williams. They're entitled to their opinion, just as I'm entitled to my opinion that they're wrong. Anyone who's still upset over not drafting Ricky Williams should be forced to wear Cowboys gear. |
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Post by nephillymike on May 28, 2019 20:53:54 GMT -5
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Post by nephillymike on May 28, 2019 21:04:24 GMT -5
No, just checked.
Randall didn't make the semis either.
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Post by hankey on May 28, 2019 22:20:00 GMT -5
No, just checked. Randall didn't make the semis either. Randall's case is far worse than McNabb's. His 2 best years were throwing to Cris Carter, 10 years apart and on different teams. You could say the two QB's are similar in that when they had deep threats, they were damn near unstoppable. I remember watching the '98 Vikings and rooting for them, probably the most exciting offense I've ever seen. |
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Post by nephillymike on May 29, 2019 0:07:29 GMT -5
Yeah, McNabb was the better QB.
Randall was the more naturally gifted, but McNabb worked harder.
I was surprised how slightly favorable Randall's career was versus his peers than McNabb's was. I would have thought it would have been the other way around by a lot.
Thinking back on it, Buddy didn't give a shit about offense, and was too insecure to hire any offensive coaching talent. Imagine if he had coaching.
You have regrets to DMAC being shackled by Reid. Mine are bigger for what Randall did not have.
However, Randall did not put the time in and it showed in big games. McNabb had the effort.
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Post by gadgetrick on May 29, 2019 5:10:10 GMT -5
You need to re-read Rick's first post again. The puking incident isn't mentioned until half way through his post, and even then it is in the context that it is what a casual fan will most likely recall of McNabb's career. Not what Rick recalls, or what Eagles fans recall, but casual fans. So I can't find anything to suggest that Rick is a hater but it's very easy to see where he has explicitly stated that he isn't. There is a part of our fanbase that doesn't like McNabb, probably because they still wish we'd taken Ricky Williams. They're entitled to their opinion, just as I'm entitled to my opinion that they're wrong. Thank you. At least someone understood...  |
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pila
Pro Bowler
Posts: 272
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Post by pila on Jun 4, 2019 10:32:20 GMT -5
Is there a comparable QB with similar stats, that lack a SB ring, but has been inducted into the HOF?
If so, wouldn't that be the only standard as to his merit of whether he deserves it, rather than making subjective arguments on non sequiturs, like puking or how well liked he is/was?
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Post by hankey on Jun 4, 2019 13:50:53 GMT -5
Is there a comparable QB with similar stats, that lack a SB ring, but has been inducted into the HOF? If so, wouldn't that be the only standard as to his merit of whether he deserves it, rather than making subjective arguments on non sequiturs, like puking or how well liked he is/was? The closest in the modern era would probably be Warren Moon. He had a lot more yards, though his td/int ratio was far worse. Moon's career passer rating was worse, McNabb's best years were slightly better than Moon's, and of course #5's playoff record was far better. 3-7 as opposed to 9-7, with Moon never reaching a Conference Championship. As much as is made of McNabb's intestinal issues, I can't imagine that compares to blowing a 32 point lead in a playoff game to the Bills. Moon had 9 Pro Bowls and an MVP, McNabb 6 Pro Bowls and no MVP. The most interesting thing about Moon is he went undrafted, and spent a significant amount of his prime in the CFL. He ended up playing in the NFL until his 40's. That was probably the biggest factor in him getting in. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jun 6, 2019 4:32:22 GMT -5
Is there a comparable QB with similar stats, that lack a SB ring, but has been inducted into the HOF? If so, wouldn't that be the only standard as to his merit of whether he deserves it, rather than making subjective arguments on non sequiturs, like puking or how well liked he is/was? See my post in this thread from May 25th. Click on the link and you will get the stats of McNabb's peers from Pro Football reference. You can sort it many ways. It doesn't appear to me that he has a case. The only QB who has a worse Passer rating during McNabbs time that is in the HOF is Favre, but the time period of McNabbs career does not include some of Favres best years in the mid- late 90's. He may have a shot as a Veterans committee nominee down the road, but not if he keeps on rambling. |
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pila
Pro Bowler
Posts: 272
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Post by pila on Jun 8, 2019 21:54:31 GMT -5
Is there a comparable QB with similar stats, that lack a SB ring, but has been inducted into the HOF? If so, wouldn't that be the only standard as to his merit of whether he deserves it, rather than making subjective arguments on non sequiturs, like puking or how well liked he is/was? See my post in this thread from May 25th. Click on the link and you will get the stats of McNabb's peers from Pro Football reference. You can sort it many ways. It doesn't appear to me that he has a case. The only QB who has a worse Passer rating during McNabbs time that is in the HOF is Favre, but the time period of McNabbs career does not include some of Favres best years in the mid- late 90's. He may have a shot as a Veterans committee nominee down the road, but not if he keeps on rambling. I'm not sure I am following. Why is he being compared by his era, rather than by what I asked - is there a QB in the HOF, who has not won a SB, with similar stats as McNabb? Warren Moon has been cited. Their stats are very similar. Why does Moon deserve it and McNabb does not? That's the only really fair question that I can decipher that doesn't significantly involve non sequiturs. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jun 9, 2019 3:59:07 GMT -5
In football, more than any other sport, the rules changes over the years, particularly at the QB position, have made comparing players of one era with players of another as an inaccurate barometer of player performance.
McNabb stats, like tons of other QBs of his era, are much better than others before him.
The 1978 limit on jamming a WR at the line, greatly changed the game.
Also, the new rules on hits over the middle has given WR free reign where they wouldn't dare go in the era of the early 2000s and before.
Even the stricter rules of post concussion lawsuits have made comparing passer ratings and other QB stats of these recent years to a five years ago inaccurate.
That is why peer comparison is the only worthwhile analysis.
If you need a HOF whose stats McNabb exceeds, pick any QB inducted before 2005 and you will find what you are looking for 75% of the time.
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Post by eyrie on Jun 9, 2019 3:59:32 GMT -5
I think you need to look at it by era because the game has changed so much with the modern rules now favouring the offense. QBs today are routinely posting numbers that would have earned them MVP status 20-30 years ago.
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Post by nephillymike on Jun 9, 2019 4:12:09 GMT -5
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pila
Pro Bowler
Posts: 272
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Post by pila on Jun 9, 2019 10:25:32 GMT -5
I think you need to look at it by era because the game has changed so much with the modern rules now favouring the offense. QBs today are routinely posting numbers that would have earned them MVP status 20-30 years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Warren Moon play in a revolutionary offense with the Oilers, where it was putting up gawdy stats? Didn't he play with formidable WRs for most of his career in Houston. If so, wouldn't that be an equalizer for the ERA differentiation? And I'd add that their respective ERAs weren't that long between them. We aren't talking about decades here. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jun 9, 2019 13:25:30 GMT -5
www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1984&year_max=2000&season_start=1&season_end=-1&league_id=NFL&pos%5B%5D=qb&draft_year_min=1936&draft_year_max=2019&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&draft_pick_in_round=pick_overall&conference=any&draft_pos%5B%5D=qb&draft_pos%5B%5D=rb&draft_pos%5B%5D=wr&draft_pos%5B%5D=te&draft_pos%5B%5D=e&draft_pos%5B%5D=t&draft_pos%5B%5D=g&draft_pos%5B%5D=c&draft_pos%5B%5D=ol&draft_pos%5B%5D=dt&draft_pos%5B%5D=de&draft_pos%5B%5D=dl&draft_pos%5B%5D=ilb&draft_pos%5B%5D=olb&draft_pos%5B%5D=lb&draft_pos%5B%5D=cb&draft_pos%5B%5D=s&draft_pos%5B%5D=db&draft_pos%5B%5D=k&draft_pos%5B%5D=p&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=100&c5val=1.0&order_by=pass_ratingInteresting comparison, McNabb vs Moon. Just like McNabb, Moon is listed as 13th in passer rating among his peer. And like McNabb who had one HOF ranked lower (Favre) and several non HOF ranked higher, so does Moon with one HOF lower (Elway) and several non HOF higher. Moon had more Pro Bowls, neither had any AllPros. McNabb had a better playoff W-L, but Moon played relatively much better than McNabb in the playoffs. Moon playoffs had over 2 Pts improvement over his career rating while McNabb playoff rating was almost six points lower than his career regular season rating. Warren Moon is currently 10th in all-time passing yards. However, when he retired he was 3rd all-time behind Marino and Elway, AND that excludes the first six years of his career where he played at an all-star level in the CFL. While not the NFL, it wasn't his fault that racism prevented Blacks from being QBs back then. If he had mediocre yards as a starting NFL QB during those years, he would have retired #1 in passing yards all-time. Upon further review, Moon is a Hall of Famer and McNabb falls short.
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Post by eyrie on Jun 9, 2019 13:50:49 GMT -5
I think you need to look at it by era because the game has changed so much with the modern rules now favouring the offense. QBs today are routinely posting numbers that would have earned them MVP status 20-30 years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Warren Moon play in a revolutionary offense with the Oilers, where it was putting up gawdy stats? Didn't he play with formidable WRs for most of his career in Houston. If so, wouldn't that be an equalizer for the ERA differentiation? And I'd add that their respective ERAs weren't that long between them. We aren't talking about decades here. My memories of Moon are a little hazy, mainly because back then we only got a one hour highlights show. Making a revolutionary offense work (borne out by gaudy numbers) would help his case, but having elite WRs would weaken it. |
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Post by hankey on Jun 9, 2019 18:31:51 GMT -5
McNabb had a better playoff W-L, but Moon played relatively much better than McNabb in the playoffs. Moon playoffs had over 2 Pts improvement over his career rating while McNabb playoff rating was almost six points lower than his career regular season rating. While not the NFL, it wasn't his fault that racism prevented Blacks from being QBs back then. I'm not going to revisit the '#5 hater' back-and-forth, but this is a pretty common and pretty annoying thing you constantly hear from his detractors, mostly Eagles fans who presumably watched and should presumably have some knowledge of big games that we've been in. He had one god-awful, atrocious game against the Panthers. He had 2 bad games against the Bucs the year before, and the Cowboys in his last game as an Eagle - both times our cause not being helped by Reid's play calling. That's it buddy. Otherwise, he was either lights out in the playoffs, or perfectly serviceable. The only reason Moon isn't synonymous with playoff choking is because of the team he lost to being even worse chokers. Are you fucking serious with the 2nd point? Dude, he graduated college in 1978, not 1878. He went undrafted, which many teams clearly came to regret. After 5 CFL titles in a row he punched his ticket to an NFL career. The NFL had black QB's before Jackie Robinson suited up. As far the HOF goes, his race likely helped get him in, as I believe he's still the only black QB in the NFL HOF. |
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pila
Pro Bowler
Posts: 272
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Post by pila on Jun 9, 2019 18:35:44 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Warren Moon play in a revolutionary offense with the Oilers, where it was putting up gawdy stats? Didn't he play with formidable WRs for most of his career in Houston. If so, wouldn't that be an equalizer for the ERA differentiation? And I'd add that their respective ERAs weren't that long between them. We aren't talking about decades here. My memories of Moon are a little hazy, mainly because back then we only got a one hour highlights show. Making a revolutionary offense work (borne out by gaudy numbers) would help his case, but having elite WRs would weaken it. No, what made it revolutionary was tactical. I think many of us forget just how good McNabb was, especially the guy's first 6 years. While stats provide significant substance, it really doesn't tell the story just how much he carried a substandard offense in those years. I remember them vividly, and remember feeling exasperated by the continuous snubs of ignoring the intangible factor of those years. He dropped off significantly after 09. Which was a shame. And he does have a pageant for stunning, unnecessary controversy. Most by his own hand, but another good part by some weird fan bias. Either way, I think there are legitimate questions on whether he should be a hall of Famer. I just never expected that the counter arguments be so vehement against by eagle fans. That's the weird part that I'm having trouble with - in the overwhelming cases we've had this argument with other Eagleplayers, we generally tend to be homers in favor of them, rationality be dammed. It's strange to see eagle fans argue so strongly against their "best QB of all time". One day I'd like to know if he deserves the polarization, and if not, then why is he such an exception. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jun 9, 2019 19:46:34 GMT -5
True Pila his first six years were excellent, no doubt.
Unfortunately, six years does not a HOF career make.
I try to put together unbiased facts to ascertain whether or not he should be in the HOF. I'm not a hater.
Oddly enough, that rally the troops Philadelphia mentality may work against him in recent years. I think people defended the team when in that win he had against us with him stating that we made a big mistake. The comments a few weeks ago when he said if Wentz didn't do well they'd need to look for his replacement got the Eagles fans backs up in defense of Wentz.
It's a shame really. A very good QB, our best of all-time, seems to not handled retirement well. He's got a great wife and family. Out of so many ex players,
he seemed to be the best equipped to handle post NFL. I wish that he finds peace with all of his accomplishments. Maybe some day, a member of the veterans committee will nominate him and he is deemed worthy of admission. In the meantime, here's hoping he gets his career back and finds some peace.
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Post by nephillymike on Jun 9, 2019 20:01:00 GMT -5
McNabb had a better playoff W-L, but Moon played relatively much better than McNabb in the playoffs. Moon playoffs had over 2 Pts improvement over his career rating while McNabb playoff rating was almost six points lower than his career regular season rating. While not the NFL, it wasn't his fault that racism prevented Blacks from being QBs back then. I'm not going to revisit the '#5 hater' back-and-forth, but this is a pretty common and pretty annoying thing you constantly hear from his detractors, mostly Eagles fans who presumably watched and should presumably have some knowledge of big games that we've been in. He had one god-awful, atrocious game against the Panthers. He had 2 bad games against the Bucs the year before, and the Cowboys in his last game as an Eagle - both times our cause not being helped by Reid's play calling. That's it buddy. Otherwise, he was either lights out in the playoffs, or perfectly serviceable. The only reason Moon isn't synonymous with playoff choking is because of the team he lost to being even worse chokers. Are you fucking serious with the 2nd point? Dude, he graduated college in 1978, not 1878. He went undrafted, which many teams clearly came to regret. After 5 CFL titles in a row he punched his ticket to an NFL career. The NFL had black QB's before Jackie Robinson suited up. As far the HOF goes, his race likely helped get him in, as I believe he's still the only black QB in the NFL HOF. theundefeated.com/features/warren-moon-nfl-black-quarterback/This tells the story as I remember it. James Harris was the only black NFL QB who had moderate success at that time. Williams came years later. |
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pila
Pro Bowler
Posts: 272
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Post by pila on Jun 9, 2019 20:08:25 GMT -5
True Pila his first six years were excellent, no doubt. Unfortunately, six years does not a HOF career make. I try to put together unbiased facts to ascertain whether or not he should be in the HOF. I'm not a hater. Oddly enough, that rally the troops Philadelphia mentality may work against him in recent years. I think people defended the team when in that win he had against us with him stating that we made a big mistake. The comments a few weeks ago when he said if Wentz didn't do well they'd need to look for his replacement got the Eagles fans backs up in defense of Wentz. It's a shame really. A very good QB, our best of all-time, seems to not handled retirement well. He's got a great wife and family. Out of so many ex players, he seemed to be the best equipped to handle post NFL. I wish that he finds peace with all of his accomplishments. Maybe some day, a member of the veterans committee will nominate him and he is deemed worthy of admission. In the meantime, here's hoping he gets his career back and finds some peace. Even in the height of his career, he had a significant wave of "anti's". It's a curiosity. In my conclusion, I do think that if a guy like Moon can get in, then I'm not sure McNabb's overall contributions, especially in those special 6 years, aren't enough to eventually get some poorly sculpted copper and tin bust to be displayed in some poorly lit glass case. |
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Post by hankey on Jun 10, 2019 13:20:10 GMT -5
Umm no, that's an anecdotal article written by an ESPN hack whos purpose in life seems to be writing racially charged essays, as a quick google search of 'Jason Reid' would tell you. Moon wasn't a stellar college QB, and once he proved himself he got his chance. |
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