|
|
Post by nephillymike on Feb 25, 2019 21:26:37 GMT -5
So we hear that Machado was our #1 target.
Then he signs a $300 M 10 yr deal and our GM said that the Padres had a higher valuation than we did.
Translation:
We weren't offering $300 M for our top choice.
Then we weren't offering that for our second choice.
Harper is unsigned because nobody is offering what he wants, obviously.
I wouldn't be surprised if we're not much above $300 M, IF THAT.
The market isnt isn't what he thought it was.
We're negotiating with ourselves.
If he won't go for $305 M, 10 years, then offer him some shorter deals at higher Annual average.
If he doesn't go for our offers that are the highest, walk away.
He's losing favor with the fans already, and he's missing valuable spring training time which could hurt his performance and get him off on the wrong foot.
Shit or get off the pot!
|
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 26, 2019 11:13:26 GMT -5
The same way my brain can't comprehend a rational person being ok with a Super Bowl MVP going in exchange for a 3rd round pick, I am incapable of understanding how in the blue fuck Bryce Harper is anywhere near worth the price he wants.
News flash, we have Harper on our team - his name is Rhys Hoskins, and he put up about the same numbers as Harper last year, for $550k.
34 hr/96 rbi/.246 - 150 SO
34 hr/100 rbi/.249 - 169 SO
Which one is Hoskins, which one is Harper? Don't cheat!
Machado is a clubhouse cancer with a shitty attitude who isn't worth the trouble and doesn't care about winning - proof of that is signing with the Padres. I can almost picture him telling his agent he wants to have Octobers off from now on.
Harper is the same way, but with much worse numbers. The only ballplayer on the planet who even comes close to $300 million in worth is Mike Trout. No pitcher is, and no other hitter. After this debacle, Trout might get $500 million in a couple years.
Some fans have said "But Harper CRUSHES the ball at CBP!" Umm no, he crushes Phillies pitching at CBP. He won't be facing Nick Pivetta anymore.
We made good, solid signings of McCutchen and Realmuto. Save the dough and get us better pitching (and a new manager).
|
|
|
|
Post by One on Feb 26, 2019 14:29:34 GMT -5
If the guy is holding out to be the highest paid I say screw him and move on. Not only are these professional salaries (and team profits) outrageous, but when that is elevated by ego to have the highest number I think more teams ought to say "deal me out." If America is to become socialist it should start with politicians and the entertainment and sports industries.  |
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 26, 2019 15:13:14 GMT -5
If the guy is holding out to be the highest paid I say screw him and move on. Not only are these professional salaries (and team profits) outrageous, but when that is elevated by ego to have the highest number I think more teams ought to say "deal me out." If America is to become socialist it should start with politicians and the entertainment and sports industries. To be fair, back in the day baseball was far more socialist, where a few rich owners essentially had teams full of indentured servants. Baseball in the era of free agency is far more similar to capitalism. Think of Venezuelans eating zoo animals as Maduro and Chavez's daughter live in luxury. Otherwise agreed. Screw Harper. |
|
|
|
Post by gadgetrick on Feb 26, 2019 16:57:47 GMT -5
Always funny to hear disgruntled fans complain about what players make. I used to be that way, too until I realized--like the players understand--it's a business. It's ONLY a business. The fans are the ones who take it so personally.
Once you understand it's just a business, it makes all of these things much more-understandable. If I'm a player--like a worker in any other job--I want to maximize what I make. As a professional athlete, I have a limited number of years to make money. I don't begrudge players who want to make as much money as they can while they can. Most of us would do the same thing in the same situation.
You don't hear people complaining about a movie star making a ton of money doing shitty roles. Sure, we may joke about it but nobody spews hatred for them when they do it. Yet, with sports, people do this all of the time.
Sure, there are some players who will pass up some of the bigger deals to play for a contender, however, typically, these players are already earning near the top of their position and many of them are on the tail end of their careers. I also understand when a player takes less money to play for someone they believe to be a contender.
And trying to say Harper is a bum (essentially) is just sour grapes. The guy is a stud. Had a slightly down year (for him) last season but he's a stud. That's why so many teams are courting him. The question--for the teams--is whether he's worth the money he seems to be asking for (none of us knows how much he's asking for). But that's ALWAYS a question no matter whom you're signing.
When you step back and understand sports aren't sports, they're businesses, the sooner you'll stop getting upset about this sort of thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 26, 2019 18:42:25 GMT -5
Always funny to hear disgruntled fans complain about what players make. I used to be that way, too until I realized--like the players understand--it's a business. It's ONLY a business. The fans are the ones who take it so personally. Once you understand it's just a business, it makes all of these things much more-understandable. If I'm a player--like a worker in any other job--I want to maximize what I make. As a professional athlete, I have a limited number of years to make money. I don't begrudge players who want to make as much money as they can while they can. Most of us would do the same thing in the same situation. You don't hear people complaining about a movie star making a ton of money doing shitty roles. Sure, we may joke about it but nobody spews hatred for them when they do it. Yet, with sports, people do this all of the time. Sure, there are some players who will pass up some of the bigger deals to play for a contender, however, typically, these players are already earning near the top of their position and many of them are on the tail end of their careers. I also understand when a player takes less money to play for someone they believe to be a contender. And trying to say Harper is a bum (essentially) is just sour grapes. The guy is a stud. Had a slightly down year (for him) last season but he's a stud. That's why so many teams are courting him. The question--for the teams--is whether he's worth the money he seems to be asking for (none of us knows how much he's asking for). But that's ALWAYS a question no matter whom you're signing. When you step back and understand sports aren't sports, they're businesses, the sooner you'll stop getting upset about this sort of thing. I've long ago realized that reading comprehension isn't your thing, but this is reaching a whole new level of the straw-man fallacy. Did you even read any posts on this thread? More importantly, have you ever watched baseball before? I'm glad you agree with me that professional sports are businesses. Like in the professional business world, there are stupid people who run organizations, and do stupid things with money. Machado signing with the Padres proves he doesn't care about winning - as in, I'm glad we didn't get him. If he dogged it in the World Series, wait until they're 20 games out in August (that means 20 games out of first place and likely out of playoff contention, FYI). Bryce Harper is quite possibly the most overrated baseball player of the last generation. He's been called 'The Chosen One,' 'Baseball's LeBron,' and a 'generational player.' At age 15 he was on the cover of SI. Yet he's spent 7 years in baseball, and he's averaged mediocre power numbers along a career .279 average. Of course, that includes his phenomenal 2015 season - to put that in perspective, Jake Arrieta won the Cy Young that year. Times change buddy. He also strikes out 150 times a year, is a defensive liability, has a bad attitude, and has missed a lot of time most years. Rhys Hoskins puts up his numbers. Since you agreed with me that baseball is a business, I understand that his offers are probably more about putting butts in the seats, as was Machado's from SD's point of view. However, that isn't how it works in Philly. If he's batting .240 and we're out of contention at some point, while he's constantly whining to the media after every game, it'll get ugly fast. As a businessman and Philly fan, WINNING is what puts butts in the seats and keeps them there. If your goal is to sell tickets for a few months, fine, give him the kingdom and pay for it in the near future. If your goal is to win baseball games, pass on his ass. |
|
|
|
Post by gadgetrick on Feb 26, 2019 19:02:45 GMT -5
Always funny to hear disgruntled fans complain about what players make. I used to be that way, too until I realized--like the players understand--it's a business. It's ONLY a business. The fans are the ones who take it so personally. Once you understand it's just a business, it makes all of these things much more-understandable. If I'm a player--like a worker in any other job--I want to maximize what I make. As a professional athlete, I have a limited number of years to make money. I don't begrudge players who want to make as much money as they can while they can. Most of us would do the same thing in the same situation. You don't hear people complaining about a movie star making a ton of money doing shitty roles. Sure, we may joke about it but nobody spews hatred for them when they do it. Yet, with sports, people do this all of the time. Sure, there are some players who will pass up some of the bigger deals to play for a contender, however, typically, these players are already earning near the top of their position and many of them are on the tail end of their careers. I also understand when a player takes less money to play for someone they believe to be a contender. And trying to say Harper is a bum (essentially) is just sour grapes. The guy is a stud. Had a slightly down year (for him) last season but he's a stud. That's why so many teams are courting him. The question--for the teams--is whether he's worth the money he seems to be asking for (none of us knows how much he's asking for). But that's ALWAYS a question no matter whom you're signing. When you step back and understand sports aren't sports, they're businesses, the sooner you'll stop getting upset about this sort of thing. I've long ago realized that reading comprehension isn't your thing, but this is reaching a whole new level of the straw-man fallacy. Did you even read any posts on this thread? More importantly, have you ever watched baseball before? I'm glad you agree with me that professional sports are businesses. Like in the professional business world, there are stupid people who run organizations, and do stupid things with money. Machado signing with the Padres proves he doesn't care about winning - as in, I'm glad we didn't get him. If he dogged it in the World Series, wait until they're 20 games out in August (that means 20 games out of first place and likely out of playoff contention, FYI). Bryce Harper is quite possibly the most overrated baseball player of the last generation. He's been called 'The Chosen One,' 'Baseball's LeBron,' and a 'generational player.' At age 15 he was on the cover of SI. Yet he's spent 7 years in baseball, and he's averaged mediocre power numbers along a career .279 average. Of course, that includes his phenomenal 2015 season - to put that in perspective, Jake Arrieta won the Cy Young that year. Times change buddy. He also strikes out 150 times a year, is a defensive liability, has a bad attitude, and has missed a lot of time most years. Rhys Hoskins puts up his numbers. Since you agreed with me that baseball is a business, I understand that his offers are probably more about putting butts in the seats, as was Machado's from SD's point of view. However, that isn't how it works in Philly. If he's batting .240 and we're out of contention at some point, while he's constantly whining to the media after every game, it'll get ugly fast. As a businessman and Philly fan, WINNING is what puts butts in the seats and keeps them there. If your goal is to sell tickets for a few months, fine, give him the kingdom and pay for it in the near future. If your goal is to win baseball games, pass on his ass. I knew the village idiot would chime in.... So, you're saying you agree with me but, because I don't agree with you that Harper is a bum, I don't know what I'm talking about. Ok, got it. We can move on from that. So, you--in your infinite wisdom--know more about the value of players than, oh, I don't know, the people who actually PAY for these athletes? Just checking... Apparently, you missed YOUR reading comprehension where I explained, it's a business. That means, it's more about making money than winning championships. Sure, the owners want to win because it goes a looooooong way to making more money but, if they never win--and continue to make the money--they aren't gonna lose sleep over it like fans tend to. You're looking at it from a fan's perspective--and it makes sense--but, when you look at it from the business standpoint, it makes more sense that they pay so much. But, it's always a crap shoot with any player. You really should get out more, it'll do you some good to get some sun.... |
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 26, 2019 20:03:54 GMT -5
I knew the village idiot would chime in.... So, you're saying you agree with me but, because I don't agree with you that Harper is a bum, I don't know what I'm talking about. Ok, got it. We can move on from that. So, you--in your infinite wisdom--know more about the value of players than, oh, I don't know, the people who actually PAY for these athletes? Just checking... Uh oh - a personal attack! Will you be warned as well? Yes, anyone who thinks Bryce Harper is worth $30 million a year knows less than I do. I don't care how you got your job. Hoskins puts up the same numbers for $550k a year - or 3 games of $30 million a year. This requires simple logic. AJ Preller was hired as the Padres GM in August of 2014, and they finished with 77 wins that year. The most they've won since then is 74, in 2015. In 2017 he received a 3-year extension..... Matt Klentak has never seen a winning season. He's made some good moves and I think we should be a winning team this year, but he's also hitched his wagon to an idiot manager who clearly is in over his head. Sam Bradford has made over $130 million in his career. In a shining case of 'blind squirrel finds a nut,' you actually agree he's never earned anything. Do you know less or more than the people who keep paying him? 'He has the job' doesn't equate to 'he knows what he's doing.' There's a reason why the same basic organizations are always competing, and the same basic organizations have patterns of failure. |
|
|
|
Post by One on Feb 26, 2019 20:32:24 GMT -5
Always funny to hear disgruntled fans complain about what players make. I used to be that way, too until I realized--like the players understand--it's a business. It's ONLY a business. The fans are the ones who take it so personally. Once you understand it's just a business, it makes all of these things much more-understandable. If I'm a player--like a worker in any other job--I want to maximize what I make. As a professional athlete, I have a limited number of years to make money. I don't begrudge players who want to make as much money as they can while they can. Most of us would do the same thing in the same situation. You don't hear people complaining about a movie star making a ton of money doing shitty roles. Sure, we may joke about it but nobody spews hatred for them when they do it. Yet, with sports, people do this all of the time. Sure, there are some players who will pass up some of the bigger deals to play for a contender, however, typically, these players are already earning near the top of their position and many of them are on the tail end of their careers. I also understand when a player takes less money to play for someone they believe to be a contender. And trying to say Harper is a bum (essentially) is just sour grapes. The guy is a stud. Had a slightly down year (for him) last season but he's a stud. That's why so many teams are courting him. The question--for the teams--is whether he's worth the money he seems to be asking for (none of us knows how much he's asking for). But that's ALWAYS a question no matter whom you're signing. When you step back and understand sports aren't sports, they're businesses, the sooner you'll stop getting upset about this sort of thing. Just to be clear, here's what I posted: I didn't say I was disgruntled for what he made. I did complain about movie stars and politicians. I didn't call him a bum. There was no hatred. I said IF he's holding out to be the highest paid player, not because he's not getting a fair market deal. Reading your response I don't know if you agree with me or not, because I don't think I disagree with anything you said otherwise, although "studs" aren't normally criticized for their fielding effort. |
|
|
|
Post by nephillymike on Feb 26, 2019 22:40:09 GMT -5
I heard a sports talk host recently say that sports teams' employees salaries are a much lower % of revenues than that of other businesses. This results in the owners making a higher percentage profit than most businesses. When you have a government ok to operate a monopoly, as they do in many sports, that keeps payroll expenses relatively low. Take a look at this link to get a feel for revenue versus player expense. Sure there are other personnel expense, but take a look at the rev vs payroll numbers here and you can see there is plenty of a gap. Other info would be nice to have, but it's looking like the host's claim as a % of revenue, the payroll is lower is a vallid one www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/ |
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 26, 2019 23:03:49 GMT -5
I heard a sports talk host recently say that sports teams' employees salaries are a much lower % of revenues than that of other businesses. This results in the owners making a higher percentage profit than most businesses. When you have a government ok to operate a monopoly, as they do in many sports, that keeps payroll expenses relatively low. Take a look at this link to get a feel for revenue versus player expense. Sure there are other personnel expense, but take a look at the rev vs payroll numbers here and you can see there is plenty of a gap. Other info would be nice to have, but it's looking like the host's claim as a % of revenue, the payroll is lower is a vallid one www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/You gotta pay $50 bucks to see the actual study. Try a screenshot.  Anyways, it wouldn't be surprising at all that sports owners make a high percentage of profit. Not only do most if all leagues offer profit-sharing as a whole, but on a game-by-game basis your profits must be insane. Try calculating 40,000 people purchasing tickets, parking, buying food and drinks, merchandise, etc. I think the greater argument is value and putting the best product on the field. Harper would sell tickets for a time - after all, he is Mr. April. But come June, it'll backfire for his price. McCutchen and Realmuto were great signings, we're a much better team with them in the lineup (assuming Kapler doesn't bat them 7th and 9th). They both beat him in batting average and put up almost his power numbers, while not being entitled assholes. This is folly for that price. |
|
|
|
Post by nephillymike on Feb 27, 2019 5:43:55 GMT -5
Wow, sorry about that.
Try googling how much revenue do MLB teams make?
That link is the first one that is listed at the top from Statistica.
It let me view the entire list of revenue by team and also click and view a link on the bottom for payroll by team without any pop up interference.
When I just clicked on the link in my post above, I got the $49 pop up message.
It must allow you one free glance at each before the pop up.
|
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 27, 2019 12:27:40 GMT -5
So apparently Middleton went to Vegas, with a 10-year deal worth $330 million agreed upon. The only caveat is Scott Boras (do we never learn?) isn't sure Harper will like it in Philly, so they're demanding a 3-year opt-out clause. Supposedly that's holding things up. The Dodgers are still in the mix but apparently aren't offering close to 10 years.
This is absolute insanity. God I hope we don't get him. Let someone else sign this fraud, and when he comes into town I'll buy tickets to go boo him, and hopefully watch him get beaned. Otherwise we sign him, he puts up his typical numbers, and fans who are now paying a shitload more for concessions, tickets, parking, and cable, boo the shit out of him anyway, and we lose him in 3 years and can't afford Trout in 2021.
Idiots.
|
|
|
|
Post by aquila on Feb 27, 2019 15:18:45 GMT -5
I've long ago realized that reading comprehension isn't your thing, but this is reaching a whole new level of the straw-man fallacy. Did you even read any posts on this thread? More importantly, have you ever watched baseball before? Very polite. |
|
|
|
Post by aquila on Feb 27, 2019 15:20:45 GMT -5
I knew the village idiot would chime in.... You really should get out more, it'll do you some good to get some sun.... Equally polite. Both of you knock it off please. You can disagree with passion without resorting to petty digs. |
|
|
|
Post by nephillymike on Feb 27, 2019 19:15:06 GMT -5
So apparently Middleton went to Vegas, with a 10-year deal worth $330 million agreed upon. The only caveat is Scott Boras (do we never learn?) isn't sure Harper will like it in Philly, so they're demanding a 3-year opt-out clause. Supposedly that's holding things up. The Dodgers are still in the mix but apparently aren't offering close to 10 years. This is absolute insanity. God I hope we don't get him. Let someone else sign this fraud, and when he comes into town I'll buy tickets to go boo him, and hopefully watch him get beaned. Otherwise we sign him, he puts up his typical numbers, and fans who are now paying a shitload more for concessions, tickets, parking, and cable, boo the shit out of him anyway, and we lose him in 3 years and can't afford Trout in 2021. Idiots. Jason Stark said today that we didn't offer $300 M yet. That makes sense if you follow that Machado was our first choice and we didn't offer him that. Im as big of analytics fan as anyone. But one potential flaw in applying it to contracts in an uncapped league, is you never know what the payroll pie is for each team. If we intend to spend $200 M in payroll for a given year, at we estimate a players value to be 10% of that, then he is worth $20 M to us. Same math, different spending level of $300 M, that player gets $30 M from somebody else. Both valuations are correct for each team, however, if we're the 20M team. we will be out of prime candidates to hire. That may be us. the other thing is, if you lose out on a guy valued at 10% of your intended payroll, it is very difficult to make up that 10% by hiring five players valued at 2% because of lack weak positions needing upgrade and the number of other teams that will make it tough to sign those five guys. This could be a problem. Maybe we can sign three guys to make up that 10% of intended salary and still get the same WAR as Harper by adding the three guys. We'll see. |
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 27, 2019 20:03:13 GMT -5
Jason Stark said today that we didn't offer $300 M yet. That makes sense if you follow that Machado was our first choice and we didn't offer him that. Im as big of analytics fan as anyone. But one potential flaw in applying it to contracts in an uncapped league, is you never know what the payroll pie is for each team. If we intend to spend $200 M in payroll for a given year, at we estimate a players value to be 10% of that, then he is worth $20 M to us. Same math, different spending level of $300 M, that player gets $30 M from somebody else. Both valuations are correct for each team, however, if we're the 20M team. we will be out of prime candidates to hire. That may be us. the other thing is, if you lose out on a guy valued at 10% of your intended payroll, it is very difficult to make up that 10% by hiring five players valued at 2% because of lack weak positions needing upgrade and the number of other teams that will make it tough to sign those five guys. This could be a problem. Maybe we can sign three guys to make up that 10% of intended salary and still get the same WAR as Harper by adding the three guys. We'll see. I'm a fan of signing players who will help us win, and paying a reasonable price for it. While I'm not an Eskin fan, he's completely against the insane price tag for Harper, and he made a good point that we seem to be bidding against ourselves. Boras no doubt has minions pumping up trade talk and making it look like a bidding war. I can't imagine he goes to SF - why would he want to hit in that ballpark? LA is possible. Anywhere but here. We have a pretty damn good looking lineup going into this year. Our worst starting hitter in terms of average will be Hoskins (a.k.a. the poor man's Harper). Get us some solid relievers, and make moves as needed mid-season. |
|
|
|
Post by nephillymike on Feb 27, 2019 21:46:34 GMT -5
So there is no reasonable ten yr deal for Harper that ineterests you, say 10.for $275 ?
|
|
|
|
Post by hankey on Feb 28, 2019 14:02:38 GMT -5
So there is no reasonable ten yr deal for Harper that ineterests you, say 10.for $275 ? I think you've bought into the hype and are just working backwards. I'm not starting at "ok 10 years, roughly 300 mil" because the media says so. I'm starting at the fact that there's 50 players in the league who are better than him. Not only did he put up mediocre power numbers last year, and not only does he strike out a ton, but he's a total defensive liability, and he has a shitty attitude. I think it is absolutely batshit insane to offer him anything in the ballpark of $30 mil a year. Segura has a 5 year/$70 mil contract we picked up. Realmuto will make $5.9 mil this year. Both are better players who are going to help us win. I would've offered Harper 5 year/$75 mil. He would've balked, and I would've told him to fuck off. This whole process is just ludicrous. |
|
