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Post by One on Feb 8, 2019 20:47:41 GMT -5
Absolutely Foles is being kicked to the curb I don't think so, he's the backup. The team identified him as the backup, and he understood he was the backup. His contract was set up as a backup's, a rich backup, but backup nonetheless. He negotiated this past contract knowing he was a backup and negotiated it so he could become a free agent and ultimately a starter. He's kicking himself to the curb, the curb where starters hang out. The Eagles picked up his option, asking him to stay with the team. He deserves free agency and the chance to prove he can be a good starter somewhere else, and I hope he does well. I'd rather he remain with the Eagles as the backup, because the team has identified Wentz as the starter. Not because he was the number two pick, but because he played lights out, MVP football his second year in the league until he tore his knee apart playing like an MVP. Foles is not getting kicked to the curb. |
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Post by hankey on Feb 8, 2019 22:55:12 GMT -5
I don't think so, he's the backup. The team identified him as the backup, and he understood he was the backup. His contract was set up as a backup's, a rich backup, but backup nonetheless. He negotiated this past contract knowing he was a backup and negotiated it so he could become a free agent and ultimately a starter. He's kicking himself to the curb, the curb where starters hang out. The Eagles picked up his option, asking him to stay with the team. He deserves free agency and the chance to prove he can be a good starter somewhere else, and I hope he does well. I'd rather he remain with the Eagles as the backup, because the team has identified Wentz as the starter. Not because he was the number two pick, but because he played lights out, MVP football his second year in the league until he tore his knee apart playing like an MVP. Foles is not getting kicked to the curb. For the record again, I love Wentz. My main concern is not about making Wentz or Foles happy, it's about the Eagles winning. And the whole point I'm trying to make is if Wentz wasn't the #2 pick, this wouldn't even be a conversation. We would make Wentz the backup, and we'd be figuring out a nice 5 year deal with Foles, with the knowledge that because of injur or poor performance, Wentz could take the job. Because he's the #2 pick, Wentz will be here next year, and Foles won't. And it better not be with the damn Giants. |
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Post by One on Feb 9, 2019 7:54:09 GMT -5
For the record again, I love Wentz. My main concern is not about making Wentz or Foles happy, it's about the Eagles winning. And the whole point I'm trying to make is if Wentz wasn't the #2 pick, this wouldn't even be a conversation. We would make Wentz the backup, and we'd be figuring out a nice 5 year deal with Foles, with the knowledge that because of injur or poor performance, Wentz could take the job. Because he's the #2 pick, Wentz will be here next year, and Foles won't. And it better not be with the damn Giants. I understand your point about being the second pick in the draft, but I don't know why your argument omits Wentz's 2017 pre-injury performance. |
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Post by gadgetrick on Feb 9, 2019 8:14:40 GMT -5
First of all, nobody is kicking Foles to the curb. The issue is, they can't afford to keep both Foles and Wentz. Your view on Foles is clouded by him winning the SB. Do you honestly believe they wouldn't have won the SB with Wentz under center? You understand Wentz is who got them the number 1 seed. If they had to go somewhere else to play--or not gotten a bye--things may have been drastically different. You say Foles was not as good this season yet his numbers would say otherwise. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Were those mistakes amplified by the fact so many of the #1s were hurt? Absolutely. Was Wentz ever 100% this season? Not even close. Your--and everyone else's--argument about health makes absolutely no sense. First injury was a freak accident. He was never healthy when he came back, which caused his back problem. Not to mention, ANYONE can get hurt. Foles got hurt when he was in Philly before. But I guess you forget that? You say Wentz showed us, "flashes," last season? Flashes!!?? Really? You understand he was going to be the MVP right? That's a bit more than, "flashes". If anyone showed flashes during his career that would be Foles (other than one season). If the team is so much better when Foles is under center, what happened at the start of the season? They looked like shit. They played like shit. And, as many of us have pointed out, Wentz just played in his THIRD season. He's still learning. He's going to make mistakes from time to time. That is a part of learning the position. For you to compare Wentz to Bradford--the biggest fraud ever in the NFL--is just plain ridiculous. I'll say it again, nobody here dislikes Foles. Nobody here thinks Foles sucks. Wentz is just the better solution going forward for the long-term. Absolutely Foles is being kicked to the curb - that's why we're having this discussion. No, Wentz would not have beat the Pats in the SB in my opinion - and he clearly wasn't the MVP of the team, much less the league, considering, you know.....Foles WON THE SUPER BOWL. Anyone who wants to be intellectually honest knows that the team was clearly better under Foles this year. He went 1-1 to start the season. We lost to the Bucs because we let Ryan Fitz throw for 400 yards. Then Wentz went 5-6. You know the rest. Of course they could keep both if they wanted to. They don't because of potential locker room issues that we've heard about recently. Since Wentz has pedigree (there's that word again), people are kicking Foles to the curb and hoping the #2 pick and franchise QB matches or exceeds his success. Unfortunately, the trends aren't looking like that. I wasn't comparing Wentz to Bradford - I was comparing people like you to people who still give Bradford money in the hopes that one day his #1 pick status will be justified. If Bradford was a 3rd-rounder, he would've been out of the league in 3 years. If Wentz was a 3rd-rounder, he'd be the backup right now. It's that simple. You are delusional. I don't even know how to respond to your ridiculousness. |
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Post by hankey on Feb 9, 2019 11:48:00 GMT -5
For the record again, I love Wentz. My main concern is not about making Wentz or Foles happy, it's about the Eagles winning. And the whole point I'm trying to make is if Wentz wasn't the #2 pick, this wouldn't even be a conversation. We would make Wentz the backup, and we'd be figuring out a nice 5 year deal with Foles, with the knowledge that because of injur or poor performance, Wentz could take the job. Because he's the #2 pick, Wentz will be here next year, and Foles won't. And it better not be with the damn Giants. I understand your point about being the second pick in the draft, but I don't know why your argument omits Wentz's 2017 pre-injury performance. His pre-injury performance is why I think it's so important to bring both guys back. QB is arguably the most important position in all of team sports, why not invest heavily in it? If SF could do it with 2 guys who hated each other, we can do it with 2 guys who are good friends. |
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Post by hankey on Feb 9, 2019 11:48:40 GMT -5
You are delusional. I don't even know how to respond to your ridiculousness. You could just say 'I lost the argument,' for starters. |
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Post by gadgetrick on Feb 9, 2019 15:06:34 GMT -5
You are delusional. I don't even know how to respond to your ridiculousness. You could just say 'I lost the argument,' for starters. Ok, you did lose the argument. And here are some FACTS to back up what myself--and others have been saying... --> clicky<-- |
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Post by hankey on Feb 9, 2019 16:21:41 GMT -5
You could just say 'I lost the argument,' for starters. Ok, you did lose the argument. And here are some FACTS to back up what myself--and others have been saying... --> clicky<--  Now you've jumped the shark, pivoting to a Reuben Frank piece. What, nothing from Eskin? For the record, Frank has stated clearly on Twitter and on WIP that moving forward with either QB would be a valid option. That's similar to my opinion. Oh and just for fun, here's another piece written by Frank from December 28th - entitled "The greatest Eagles QB ever? There's only one answer and it's Nick Foles." link |
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Post by gadgetrick on Feb 9, 2019 16:54:41 GMT -5
Ok, you did lose the argument. And here are some FACTS to back up what myself--and others have been saying... --> clicky<-- Now you've jumped the shark, pivoting to a Reuben Frank piece. What, nothing from Eskin? For the record, Frank has stated clearly on Twitter and on WIP that moving forward with either QB would be a valid option. That's similar to my opinion. Oh and just for fun, here's another piece written by Frank from December 28th - entitled "The greatest Eagles QB ever? There's only one answer and it's Nick Foles." link Similar to your opinion? Exactly how? You have basically said Wentz sucks and Foles should stay. Using the ole, "Fake news," argument, eh? Problem is, this is an article based on facts, not opinions. But don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative... |
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Post by hankey on Feb 9, 2019 17:14:56 GMT -5
Similar to your opinion? Exactly how? You have basically said Wentz sucks and Foles should stay. Using the ole, "Fake news," argument, eh? Problem is, this is an article based on facts, not opinions. But don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative... My opinion is that we should keep both. Foles is clearly the best option right now, Wentz has to be 100% which will take awhile, and he's the future. I've made this crystal clear in almost every post I've made, and have backed it up with facts and logic. You lost the argument, then pivoted to lazily posting a piece by Frank, who recently wrote the article I posted. Clearly you didn't research Frank's opinion on both QB's, which is why I posted that. Cherry-picked and intellectually dishonest stats don't make up for the eyeball test. The simple fact is that anyone who watched the games this season knows damn well we were immediately better when Foles came in. I had no doubt whatsoever we would beat the Rams and Texans, and once we got into the playoffs, I knew we would beat the Bears. And he almost pulled off handing Brees his first playoff loss at home. |
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Post by nephillymike on Feb 9, 2019 20:35:07 GMT -5
I wonder what facts take presidence over better stats in all except TD% and a much better winning % against tougher competition with the same team?
Add the reasonable fact that Wentz deal will be more than Foles deal, and there seams to be value to be had with Foles.
But we picked Wentz and he is my QB and we're in this together. I'm hoping he learned a little bit so he can improve his game for the benefit of all.
I think we'll be fine, and over time the missing assets we could have had will fade and when Wentz develops it will be a distant memory.
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Post by hankey on Feb 9, 2019 22:38:58 GMT -5
I think we'll be fine, and over time the missing assets we could have had will fade and when Wentz develops it will be a distant memory. Haha. Sorry buddy, this is shaping up to be the next Reid vs. McNabb eternal debate. I believe Foles is likely gone, and the best we can hope for is somewhere in the AFC. And we all will be following him and comparing him to Wentz every single damn week. But if he somehow ends up in the NFC East, whoa boy. The Eagles FO will do whatever they can to avoid that, believe me. |
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Post by gadgetrick on Feb 10, 2019 9:05:51 GMT -5
Similar to your opinion? Exactly how? You have basically said Wentz sucks and Foles should stay. Using the ole, "Fake news," argument, eh? Problem is, this is an article based on facts, not opinions. But don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative... My opinion is that we should keep both. Foles is clearly the best option right now, Wentz has to be 100% which will take awhile, and he's the future. I've made this crystal clear in almost every post I've made, and have backed it up with facts and logic. You lost the argument, then pivoted to lazily posting a piece by Frank, who recently wrote the article I posted. Clearly you didn't research Frank's opinion on both QB's, which is why I posted that. Cherry-picked and intellectually dishonest stats don't make up for the eyeball test. The simple fact is that anyone who watched the games this season knows damn well we were immediately better when Foles came in. I had no doubt whatsoever we would beat the Rams and Texans, and once we got into the playoffs, I knew we would beat the Bears. And he almost pulled off handing Brees his first playoff loss at home. Ok, first you sound reasonable about wanting to keep both QBs--something you had neither mentioned or implied until I posted this article. While I'd love to have both, it's not possible based on money. Then you lose me pooh poohing an article based on FACTS because of your bias towards the writer. Please cherry pick the other numbers/FACTS, which back up your opinion. I'll wait.... |
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Post by One on Feb 10, 2019 10:31:25 GMT -5
One article references fact while the other is based on emotional attachment. Both are accurate, but it's the difference between reality and feelings to me. Wentz is the better QB statistically but Foles is a fan favorite for what he's overcome and, most importantly, for what he's accomplished. Wentz needs time to reach a Foles factor - the Eagles can't afford them both. |
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Post by nephillymike on Feb 10, 2019 11:32:56 GMT -5
I agree the Eagles can't afford them both.
Foles stats and 10-2 record against real tough competition seemed pretty real to me.
Time to move on.
Hoping for the best, I think Wentz will do well. Hoping he learned a few things and stays healthy enough to help him and help us.
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Post by hankey on Feb 10, 2019 14:18:27 GMT -5
Ok, first you sound reasonable about wanting to keep both QBs--something you had neither mentioned or implied until I posted this article. While I'd love to have both, it's not possible based on money. Then you lose me pooh poohing an article based on FACTS because of your bias towards the writer. Please cherry pick the other numbers/FACTS, which back up your opinion. I'll wait.... Dude, I said both should be brought back several times on this board, and several times on this thread - starting over a week ago. In fact, you were the next poster the first two times I mentioned it, and you replied directly to me the 2nd time I said it. Do you even internet?! I'll take apart one of his 'facts' for my amusement: #7, where he stated Wentz had just as good a deep ball this year (false) because he had 16 completions of more than 30 yards, while Foles only had 9. Ummm ok, yeah, that's because he played in 11 games as opposed to 7. Duh. On top of that, he was clearly more timid about letting loose and shooting for the big play, while Foles went out there and did his thing - that also leads to the slightly higher interception ratio, as putting the ball up isn't the same as checking down and watching your guy get 15 yards after the catch. And on top of that, 4 of Foles's 7 games were against teams that went 49-15, including 2 of the best defenses in football, and the other two were in the NFCCG. And he beat 3 of them, and was a botched catch away from the 4th! It's simply ludicrous to suggest they were even close to being on the same level. I don't care that Wentz completed a higher percentage of passes to running backs and Ertz and was timid with his long attempts, leading to another example of passer rating being BS. |
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Post by hankey on Feb 10, 2019 14:21:16 GMT -5
Foles stats and 10-2 record against real tough competition seemed pretty real to me. Time to move on. Alas, the only stat that matters at the end. Wins. If Foles ends up in the AFC I'll move on and wish him the best. But you better believe this topic is going to dominate Philly talk radio for the next 2-3 years, especially if he doesn't leave the conference. |
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Post by gadgetrick on Feb 10, 2019 16:21:58 GMT -5
Foles stats and 10-2 record against real tough competition seemed pretty real to me. Time to move on. Alas, the only stat that matters at the end. Wins. If Foles ends up in the AFC I'll move on and wish him the best. But you better believe this topic is going to dominate Philly talk radio for the next 2-3 years, especially if he doesn't leave the conference. Talk about cherry picking the stats. "Deep Balls:Nick throws a great deep ball, but Wentz actually had 16 completions of 30 yards this year or more compared to nine for Foles. That’s one every 25 attempts for Carson and one every 30 attempts for Foles." Hmm, that's comparing apples and apples there my friend. Yes, Wentz played more games but, the last sentence explains why this stat is important. I could go on but apparently, you don't understand how the numbers work. You don't just take the part of the stat which backs your case up. You take the whole stat. Foles is working with a MUCH smaller sample size (over the past 2 seasons). He has come in late in the year both times. He didn't have the 10+ games of beating on his body a regular QB would have. Oh and, Wentz shouldn't have come back so soon as he was never 100% healthy. But, again, you seem to miss that part. When Foles started the season this past season he didn't set the world on fire. He kinda sucked against Atlanta--I was at that game. He had good final numbers against Tampa but they lost. He was very good in the last 3 games of the regular season. In the playoffs--you know, where people who want Foles to be the guy say he excels--again, he was average against Chicago. Against NO he was lights out in the first quarter--other than that interception where, as usual, he threw the ball up for grabs but this one was picked off--then was average (or worse) for most of the rest of the game. When he's on (Foles), he is lights out for sure. I don't think anyone here will deny that. Problem is, if you expect him to be lights out over the course of 16 games then you're asking for a bit much. I've said, repeatedly, I love Foles for what he did (finished the job Wentz put him in position to finish) but the stats don't lie--even if you want to twist them--Wentz is a better QB. The team played pretty damn good last season (SB season) under Wentz before he went down. The team didn't play well under Foles at the start of this season and didn't play well under Wentz after he took over. The team got healthy about the same time Wentz went down this season and that was a HUGE factor. Just look at the defensive numbers before Wentz went down. The bottom line is the defense played like shit for a good portion of the season, in large part because of injury and also some coaching snafus. They did blow late large leads while Wentz was playing. They weren't Wentz's fault. Did Wentz miss some things this season? Absolutely. Then again, so did Foles. Hell, ALL QBs will miss things. There's a lot happening. Wentz continues to improve his game even as he's been working to get healthy. Could he fizzle out? Obviously, anyone can fizzle out. But I'd prefer to ride this horse as to see where it takes us. It took us to the cusp of a SB before he got hurt in his SECOND season. He came back too soon and played hurt. His numbers were actually BETTER this season than last season even though the team struggled and he was hurt. I hope Foles goes on to another team and does well, as long as it doesn't hurt the Eagles. I'll always be a fan of his. But the numbers don't lie. Now, I can understand people who are saying trade Wentz to get a bunch of talent and keep Foles. Not what I'd do but that makes much more sense than trying to make the argument Foles is a better QB. But that is a different discussion entirely. |
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Post by hankey on Feb 10, 2019 16:45:22 GMT -5
Talk about cherry picking the stats. "Deep Balls:Nick throws a great deep ball, but Wentz actually had 16 completions of 30 yards this year or more compared to nine for Foles. That’s one every 25 attempts for Carson and one every 30 attempts for Foles." Hmm, that's comparing apples and apples there my friend. Yes, Wentz played more games but, the last sentence explains why this stat is important. I could go on but apparently, you don't understand how the numbers work. You don't just take the part of the stat which backs your case up. You take the whole stat. Foles is working with a MUCH smaller sample size (over the past 2 seasons). He has come in late in the year both times. He didn't have the 10+ games of beating on his body a regular QB would have. Oh and, Wentz shouldn't have come back so soon as he was never 100% healthy. But, again, you seem to miss that part. When Foles started the season this past season he didn't set the world on fire. He kinda sucked against Atlanta--I was at that game. He had good final numbers against Tampa but they lost. He was very good in the last 3 games of the regular season. In the playoffs--you know, where people who want Foles to be the guy say he excels--again, he was average against Chicago. Against NO he was lights out in the first quarter--other than that interception where, as usual, he threw the ball up for grabs but this one was picked off--then was average (or worse) for most of the rest of the game. When he's on (Foles), he is lights out for sure. I don't think anyone here will deny that. Problem is, if you expect him to be lights out over the course of 16 games then you're asking for a bit much. I've said, repeatedly, I love Foles for what he did (finished the job Wentz put him in position to finish) but the stats don't lie--even if you want to twist them--Wentz is a better QB. The team played pretty damn good last season (SB season) under Wentz before he went down. The team didn't play well under Foles at the start of this season and didn't play well under Wentz after he took over. The team got healthy about the same time Wentz went down this season and that was a HUGE factor. Just look at the defensive numbers before Wentz went down. The bottom line is the defense played like shit for a good portion of the season, in large part because of injury and also some coaching snafus. They did blow late large leads while Wentz was playing. They weren't Wentz's fault. Did Wentz miss some things this season? Absolutely. Then again, so did Foles. Hell, ALL QBs will miss things. There's a lot happening. Wentz continues to improve his game even as he's been working to get healthy. Could he fizzle out? Obviously, anyone can fizzle out. But I'd prefer to ride this horse as to see where it takes us. It took us to the cusp of a SB before he got hurt in his SECOND season. He came back too soon and played hurt. His numbers were actually BETTER this season than last season even though the team struggled and he was hurt. I hope Foles goes on to another team and does well, as long as it doesn't hurt the Eagles. I'll always be a fan of his. But the numbers don't lie. Now, I can understand people who are saying trade Wentz to get a bunch of talent and keep Foles. Not what I'd do but that makes much more sense than trying to make the argument Foles is a better QB. But that is a different discussion entirely. You spelled 'I lost the argument again' wrong. |
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Post by rumply on Feb 10, 2019 19:57:31 GMT -5
Yeah it's a bit of a nightmare scenario if Foles remains in conference & does well. He can go to the AFC & go 16&0 for all I care, more power too him. Dolphins really should pick him up just to try & make Brady's life a misery.
We'd all love him to stay, that aint happening, time to move on.
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