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Post by birdwatcher on Jan 27, 2019 12:41:13 GMT -5
Yes he is a legend here, he had two spectacular games (Vikes/Pats) that netted us a SB, never can forget that. But here is my issue, he played two 6 game seasons in the last two years, how do you extrapolate that to a 16-19 game season? In 2013 he was the starter, began the season as unreal, but as D's caught up to Chip his effectiveness declined. He also missed 3 games with a shoulder injury if I remember correctly, the product of taking too many hits.
Even in the last two seasons we saw signs of mediocre Nick, he was just a guy in the Raider game and the Atlanta playoff win the D basically won it for us. I'm not sure that Foles is a full season QB, at least not as good as he was in his abbreviated runs.
As for Wentz, this year he was not as fast as he was in 2017 because regaining speed takes more time than just letting the knee heal. That, I do believe, led to the back injury because he could not escape as easily as he did in 2017. On the flip side, until he went out in game 13 in 2017, Wentz was a dominant QB through 12 games, even his two losses had less to do with him than the D. He had only 1 bad game this year, and ironically to the same team as Foles lost to in the playoffs. At the time Wentz lost he had the back injury, Foles was far healthier.
My bottom line, The Eagles are right to keep Wentz and let Foles go, as the potential is still there for 11 to become a top tier QB. Nick, as much as I love him, does NOT have that potential. He can be great and he has shown he can be mediocre too. Ojnce Wentz is fully healthy and recovered from ACL, his speed should return and so to that ability to do the things he did in the first 3/4 of last season. IMHO anyway.
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Post by hankey on Jan 27, 2019 13:23:30 GMT -5
"Foles fluffing?"
You mean, recognizing the fact that our #2 QB won us our first ring against the 'goat,' marched us into the 2nd round of the playoffs after the season was basically lost, and put us in position to beat the #1 seed on the road?
The Foles bashing is what confuses me. What the hell does he have to do to get some respect from Eagles fans? You do understand we win championships about once every half-century? It's also impossible as a fan to not see a difference right now. I had no doubt in my mind that Foles would step onto the field and beat the Rams. From then on the only game I was worried about was at NO, and he still almost pulled that off.
How do you extrapolate Wentz's numbers to a 16-19 game season? Because he has played in 16, 13, and now 11 games in his 3 years. Not a good trend. Yes his stats were solid (thank you Ertz), but if you say you saw the same player that went 11-2 last year, you're a liar. He was visibly worse, and not just from recovery.
It's obvious the team plays better with Foles and believes in him more. I also don't want to cut Wentz loose. If there's any way possible to bring both back and let them compete, I say do it. People have pointed to a Montana/Young situation, and why not? We got one ring, and clearly the 'backup' has a habit of spanking excellent teams in big games.
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 27, 2019 16:00:32 GMT -5
I am very happy with Foles and Wentz.
Imagine that!
I think, prior to this week's story, Wentz was being "fluffed" more than Foles was.
You mention extrapolations of stats.
If you ignore all the noise, and just focus on the games that both QBs have played for Pederson with the Eagles, Foles has better stats in every category except TD%. And against much better competition in bigger games. In a way it's not fair to assume that Wentz can't do it, but you can't discount the fact that a Foles has. If Alshon catches that ball and we have it 1st and 10 from the twenty, are you betting against him? Not me. As far as his stats last game, not great. Add back the Alshon catch and take away resulting interception and the stats look much better. True, we are ignoring his bad season in STL a bad one that Keenum had there too, but we are ignoring the third highest passer rating ever in his Chip year, levels that no other Chip QB approached.
I think the eye test tends to remember the Wentz highlights; the Houdini against the Redskins, the run against the Rams, the escape the pocket and throw that little flip pass to Sproles against the Steelers. But it overlooks the awesome pass plays of Foles; that pass to the pylon to Torrey Smith vs MIN, the over the shoulder passes to Alshon, that throw him open pass to Matthews, the Tate pass. Those are top shelf passes but not as pretty as some of the athletic stuff.
There's also the question of value. I think Wentz value in a trade is very high. I think trading him will get a Pro Bowl player, a solid starter and a third round pick. Keeping Foles will cost us an after the third round compensation pick. I think Wentz's contract will be $20M more over five years than Foles will get.
So for me it is this: Do I take Foles plus a PB player, a solid starter, 20M and give up the after 3rd round comp pick and Wentz or not?
To me, that's a valid conversation, not worthy of any fluff on either side. Me, I have switched on this. I lean slightly towards a Foles. I previously leaned slightly towards Wentz. I will not be upset that they are going with Wentz. He's my QB and I'm happy to have him.
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Post by birdwatcher on Jan 27, 2019 16:22:09 GMT -5
"Foles fluffing?" You mean, recognizing the fact that our #2 QB won us our first ring against the 'goat,' marched us into the 2nd round of the playoffs after the season was basically lost, and put us in position to beat the #1 seed on the road? The Foles bashing is what confuses me. What the hell does he have to do to get some respect from Eagles fans? You do understand we win championships about once every half-century? It's also impossible as a fan to not see a difference right now. I had no doubt in my mind that Foles would step onto the field and beat the Rams. From then on the only game I was worried about was at NO, and he still almost pulled that off. How do you extrapolate Wentz's numbers to a 16-19 game season? Because he has played in 16, 13, and now 11 games in his 3 years. Not a good trend. Yes his stats were solid (thank you Ertz), but if you say you saw the same player that went 11-2 last year, you're a liar. He was visibly worse, and not just from recovery. It's obvious the team plays better with Foles and believes in him more. I also don't want to cut Wentz loose. If there's any way possible to bring both back and let them compete, I say do it. People have pointed to a Montana/Young situation, and why not? We got one ring, and clearly the 'backup' has a habit of spanking excellent teams in big games. Foles bashing? No I don't think I did that at all, just reported what I witnessed over his career, up to and including the last game against the Saints. Foles has shown he is a streaky QB, history confirms it, there has been great Foles and mediocre Foles. Last year Wentz was not just strong for 12 weeks (everyone was saying MVP year) he was getting stronger every week. Even the last play of 2017, a 4th down TD catch to Alshon on one leg...literally, was a hell of a way to end his season. Here is what I think happens, and we can discuss it 12 months from now. Foles moves on and has a decent season, and Wentz returns to form and this argument becomes moot. As far as bashing, I have been hearing a parade of morons bashing Wentz on WIP this week and fluffing Wentz as if he is Montana reborn. I think we have seen Foles at his apex in the final two games of last season, but I have not seen that translate to a repeatable pattern, the first two games this season he was meh, and though we won on a double doink in Chicago, was he anywhere as close to as good as he was against the Vikes and the Pats. Frank Reich owns a historical comeback win in his career, winning after being down 35-3, but that did not catapult him to greatness. With Foles we caught lightning in a bottle and I think the probability that Wentz can be more than that is far more likely. Here is another thing to consider, over the last two years Wentz has had to eat a lot of humble pie given the way things played out. Even that hit-piece on him can turn into a benefit in the long run, because I have learned far more from failure than success. I think all this criticism of him will stoke the fire in his heart even more, he has always been determined, but I think we got a talented QB with a chip on his shoulder now. I'm telling you, this kid will light up the league over the next few years and this year will just be a bump in the road. |
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Post by hankey on Jan 27, 2019 17:31:14 GMT -5
I think the general consensus is that Wentz has the better future upside, while Foles is better at this very moment in time. As mentioned, Wentz would have blockbuster trade value while Foles would not.
As far as Foles's history and being 'streaky,' I think that's BS. He's a winner, plain and simple - his inconsistencies are a result of his constantly changing situations. Yes, he started his career on an awful Eagles team that had given up on Reid. The following 2 years he was 14-4 as starter here. Then of course the Chip horror show ended with just about everyone being cut or traded, and Foles went to STL to get the Jeff Fisher treatment. Then a year as backup in KC, and of course his year backing up Wentz here (and winning it all).
The simple fact is we're talking about pedigree. Wentz has pedigree, Foles doesn't. He threw 7 td's in a game and people were appalled that 'Foles' and 'NFL record' were in the same sentence. He had one of the best seasons any QB has had in history, and people to this day are still making excuses for how it was Chip's offense. The bottom line is if the Eagles cut Foles loose and go with Wentz immediately, it will be based on pedigree and potential, and nothing logical at this moment in time.
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Post by birdwatcher on Jan 27, 2019 19:18:34 GMT -5
The difference between you and the Eagles Hankey is that they have patience and a long term plan, you are looking at right now and not looking far enough down the road. I believe it is a product of our instant gratification society, give it to me now and damn the future. What I am saying is that we have seen the best that Foles can be, but even recent history suggests he has not morphed into an elite QB because of a couple of spectacular performances. And those performances required an amazing display of talent by other players like Alshon, Ertz, and Clement making tough catches for TDs. The fact that all three did in the SB just proves that we were charmed last year. IF Foles had gone all the way again this year then there would be an argument on which to keep, but I would rather take a chance on a decade with Wentz compared half that with Foles.
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Post by rumply on Jan 27, 2019 19:40:11 GMT -5
If Foles had a Pederson or Belichick type coach when he first came into the league rather than Kelly, his career would almost certainly look a lot different. There's a fair argument to say the first part of his career was wasted through coaching mismanagement. His first year numbers were great & we can now look back & say 'yes, that year wasn't a fluke'. It was however unsustainable under Kelly's system, which was doomed from the start.
It's not too much of a stretch for me to envision 2 dynasties running side by side, Eagles & Pats, had we a decent coach for Foles in his first few years. & that ship hasn't sailed just yet, but it's being prepared for sea...
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Post by hankey on Jan 27, 2019 19:40:34 GMT -5
The difference between you and the Eagles Hankey is that they have patience and a long term plan, you are looking at right now and not looking far enough down the road. I believe it is a product of our instant gratification society, give it to me now and damn the future. Brilliant analysis. Save the sophomoric social commentary for your next Gender Studies lecture. Foles is the better QB now, and Wentz has the upside to be the future QB. The only reason on earth Wentz hasn't already lost his job is because of his pedigree - and Foles's lack of pedigree is precisely why he still gets no respect from fans like you and the media. He has accomplished what only one other QB has ever done, and that's beat Tom Brady in a Super Bowl. It's undeniable that the team plays better with Foles under center. Pederson also seems to call a better and more consistent game plan with Foles in there. So yes - give me another ring now, and let's keep the future intact by bringing both back and letting them compete for the job. |
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Post by hankey on Jan 27, 2019 19:41:31 GMT -5
If Foles had a Pederson or Belichick type coach when he first came into the league rather than Kelly, his career would almost certainly look a lot different. There's a fair argument to say the first part of his career was wasted through coaching mismanagement. His first year numbers were great & we can now look back & say 'yes, that year wasn't a fluke'. It was however unsustainable under Kelly's system, which was doomed from the start. It's not too much of a stretch for me to envision 2 dynasties running side by side, Eagles & Pats, had we a decent coach for Foles in his first few years. & that ship hasn't sailed just yet, but it's being prepared for sea... Cheers |
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Post by One on Jan 27, 2019 20:19:25 GMT -5
"Foles fluffing?" You mean, recognizing the fact that our #2 QB won us our first ring against the 'goat,' marched us into the 2nd round of the playoffs after the season was basically lost, and put us in position to beat the #1 seed on the road? The Foles bashing is what confuses me. What the hell does he have to do to get some respect from Eagles fans? You do understand we win championships about once every half-century? It's also impossible as a fan to not see a difference right now. I had no doubt in my mind that Foles would step onto the field and beat the Rams. From then on the only game I was worried about was at NO, and he still almost pulled that off. How do you extrapolate Wentz's numbers to a 16-19 game season? Because he has played in 16, 13, and now 11 games in his 3 years. Not a good trend. Yes his stats were solid (thank you Ertz), but if you say you saw the same player that went 11-2 last year, you're a liar. He was visibly worse, and not just from recovery. It's obvious the team plays better with Foles and believes in him more. I also don't want to cut Wentz loose. If there's any way possible to bring both back and let them compete, I say do it. People have pointed to a Montana/Young situation, and why not? We got one ring, and clearly the 'backup' has a habit of spanking excellent teams in big games. Foles bashing? No I don't think I did that at all, just reported what I witnessed over his career, up to and including the last game against the Saints. Foles has shown he is a streaky QB, history confirms it, there has been great Foles and mediocre Foles. Last year Wentz was not just strong for 12 weeks (everyone was saying MVP year) he was getting stronger every week. Even the last play of 2017, a 4th down TD catch to Alshon on one leg...literally, was a hell of a way to end his season. Here is what I think happens, and we can discuss it 12 months from now. Foles moves on and has a decent season, and Wentz returns to form and this argument becomes moot. As far as bashing, I have been hearing a parade of morons bashing Wentz on WIP this week and fluffing Wentz as if he is Montana reborn. I think we have seen Foles at his apex in the final two games of last season, but I have not seen that translate to a repeatable pattern, the first two games this season he was meh, and though we won on a double doink in Chicago, was he anywhere as close to as good as he was against the Vikes and the Pats. Frank Reich owns a historical comeback win in his career, winning after being down 35-3, but that did not catapult him to greatness. With Foles we caught lightning in a bottle and I think the probability that Wentz can be more than that is far more likely. Here is another thing to consider, over the last two years Wentz has had to eat a lot of humble pie given the way things played out. Even that hit-piece on him can turn into a benefit in the long run, because I have learned far more from failure than success. I think all this criticism of him will stoke the fire in his heart even more, he has always been determined, but I think we got a talented QB with a chip on his shoulder now. I'm telling you, this kid will light up the league over the next few years and this year will just be a bump in the road. To me the real question is what are our needs and who can we afford to keep when considering the entire team. At that point it's a matter of need and cost. Foles, Peters, Hicks, Agholor, Graham, a running back from somewhere and a speed receiver who can be counted on. |
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Post by birdwatcher on Jan 27, 2019 20:33:25 GMT -5
If Foles had a Pederson or Belichick type coach when he first came into the league rather than Kelly, his career would almost certainly look a lot different. There's a fair argument to say the first part of his career was wasted through coaching mismanagement. His first year numbers were great & we can now look back & say 'yes, that year wasn't a fluke'. It was however unsustainable under Kelly's system, which was doomed from the start. It's not too much of a stretch for me to envision 2 dynasties running side by side, Eagles & Pats, had we a decent coach for Foles in his first few years. & that ship hasn't sailed just yet, but it's being prepared for sea... That is just pure speculation, there is just as much of a chance that a confluence of events led Nick to the right place and right time. If last year's run up to the SB, all 6 games he played (5 really because he sat out the last game) then that should have been Foles coming out party. This year in game 1 we beat Atlanta, but Foles had an awful day mostly, look at the stats. Game 2 we had Nick on fire, great game, but we lose to TB. This was with an SB-MVP QB who had all off season to work with the team. There has been a lot said that the 'team' responded better to Foles, not in those two games.
There is also a factor I think played into the problems before Foles took over, and that was the rest of the team. Cox was not as effective until Timmy J came back, around the same time as Foles. Our DBs hit their nadir in NO when we had PS guys as corners, who did get better, but were awful in that game. There are other factors, but my point is that the team as a whole improved A LOT in the last quarter of the season, health-wise and attitude -wise. That thumping in NO seemed to wake them up and they started playing much better after that. The Dallas loss came after Wentz tied it and then never got a chance to touch it in OT.
It seems to me that everyone forgot the trajectory Wentz was on in 2017, enough of one that HOF sports writer R. Didinger labelled him a 'generational' player, the kind that comes along very rarely. I'm just glad that all the sideline experts are just that, and Howie and Doug know what they have in Wentz. Time will tell.
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Post by rumply on Jan 27, 2019 21:04:10 GMT -5
Speculation? For sure. I guess all I'm really trying to say is Foles didn't all of a sudden 'become good'. He's been a well above average NFL QB since the day he walked into the league. Is he Brady? No. Can he stink it up at times? Yes. But put Foles in the type of system that Brady has enjoyed all his career & what would we have? If he remained in Pederson's scheme for the remainder of his career what would be have? Speculation yes but valid speculation imho.
I've posted before I'm all in on Wentz & he should be our QB going forward. That's not to say though that if somehow Foles starts for the Eagles for the foreseeable future that I'm going to go jump off a bridge. I think I could live with it;).
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 27, 2019 21:21:35 GMT -5
BW,
Take those great throws by Foles, in those clutch situations, how certain are you that Wentz can make them?
How certain are you that Wentz will run the offense that Pedey presents?
If they decide that Wentz is Our guy, I'm ok, he's my guy too.
I just don't think the difference between Wentz and Foles is as great as the net assets we get from trading Wentz.
That doesn't make me a Foles fluffer, just a realist trying to walk out of this situation with the best team possible.
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Post by birdwatcher on Jan 28, 2019 10:18:55 GMT -5
All I am saying Mike is that we have seen the best Foles has to offer, and it is pretty good. We have NOT seen Wentz's best yet, but the first 12 games of 17 indicated he was on an upward trajectory. Foles had the whole offseason going into 18 and looked meh in the first two games, while Carson spent most of his off season held back and still finishing rehab. Wentz has amazing potential and even though we could get more in a trade for him, what if we did AND Wentz goes elsewhere and tears up the league? That would make us look and feel awful. Foles, on the other hand, I doubt will ever improve beyond what we have seen already. He can be spectacular, but as the last two games showed, he can also be very pedestrian. I think we have more potential for regret letting Wentz go than we do by keeping him.
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Post by hankey on Jan 28, 2019 14:52:15 GMT -5
All I am saying Mike is that we have seen the best Foles has to offer, and it is pretty good. He's 10-2 under Pederson, including 3 playoff wins plus a Super Bowl win against a dynasty that has been winning rings for almost 2 decades. That isn't 'pretty good.' That's 'phenomenal.' And that's why your opinion eerily resembles that of what one would call a 'hater.' |
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Post by aquila on Jan 28, 2019 15:20:31 GMT -5
The difference between you and the Eagles Hankey is that they have patience and a long term plan, you are looking at right now and not looking far enough down the road. I believe it is a product of our instant gratification society, give it to me now and damn the future. Brilliant analysis. Save the sophomoric social commentary for your next Gender Studies lecture. That is a straightforward personal attack on another poster with no relevance to the quoted post. You already know that personal comments are not acceptable, so please don't do it again. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 28, 2019 21:37:25 GMT -5
All I am saying Mike is that we have seen the best Foles has to offer, and it is pretty good. We have NOT seen Wentz's best yet, but the first 12 games of 17 indicated he was on an upward trajectory. Foles had the whole offseason going into 18 and looked meh in the first two games, while Carson spent most of his off season held back and still finishing rehab. Wentz has amazing potential and even though we could get more in a trade for him, what if we did AND Wentz goes elsewhere and tears up the league? That would make us look and feel awful. Foles, on the other hand, I doubt will ever improve beyond what we have seen already. He can be spectacular, but as the last two games showed, he can also be very pedestrian. I think we have more potential for regret letting Wentz go than we do by keeping him.
I'm ok with keeping Wentz. He's a heck of a talent. He has got a tough act to follow, that's for sure. He's a gamer I'm sure he's up for the challenge. Heres hoping we have no regrets. Those assets are intriguing though. Wentz seems to have the makeup to be a top eight QB for a lot of years. |
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