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Post by eyrie on Jan 21, 2019 14:45:57 GMT -5
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Post by hankey on Jan 21, 2019 16:47:08 GMT -5
These days, I assume everything in the news is a complete lie unless I see video or hear audio backing the story up.
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 21, 2019 22:05:07 GMT -5
This explains a few things to me:
The over the top love and excitement the team had when Foles replaced the injured Wentz. This was by a few veteran players. That seemed odd to me at the time and a little concerning. Now, not so much.
I did notice Wentz passing on a lot of run friendly formations this year. It used to be count the guys in the box, and choose the most effective option. My sons and I would look at each other puzzled by the play selection. We assumed it was Groh who didn't let Wentz audible into the right play!!
Why all of a sudden, all these other WR and RB were open all over the field.
The stark difference in the sacks and time holding the ball between Wentz and Foles.
The curious comment made during our broadcast by Aikman. He said that in playing against Wentz, Peyton thought they could get to him on blitzes and stunts. Peyton lamented that he didn't think they could do that against Foles. Aikman didn'ti say it outright, but you got the strong impression that Peyton feared Foles more than Wentz
One thing to emphasize is that this research started before Foles replaced Wentz, as a project to see why the offense was struggling.
I was leaning towards Wentz because of youth and skill set but now, I think I offer them both in trade and see what each would bring us and how much each would cost and go from there. I was never going to offer him an extension next year, b/c we still have a year until we have to do that. My previous reason was we need the cap resources for now.
We can deal with next year then. After reading this, I don't pay him next year till I see how he is this year.
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Post by hankey on Jan 21, 2019 22:57:49 GMT -5
I think it's obvious that the team believes in Foles more. That being said, I think it's obvious that they also love Wentz. We're all human, and it has to grind Wentz's gears that Foles steps in and leads them farther than he would have. But I think he genuinely wants the Eagles to do well, even if he isn't playing.
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Post by birdwatcher on Jan 22, 2019 1:29:51 GMT -5
This explains a few things to me: The over the top love and excitement the team had when Foles replaced the injured Wentz. This was by a few veteran players. That seemed odd to me at the time and a little concerning. Now, not so much. I did notice Wentz passing on a lot of run friendly formations this year. It used to be count the guys in the box, and choose the most effective option. My sons and I would look at each other puzzled by the play selection. We assumed it was Groh who didn't let Wentz audible into the right play!! Why all of a sudden, all these other WR and RB were open all over the field. The stark difference in the sacks and time holding the ball between Wentz and Foles. The curious comment made during our broadcast by Aikman. He said that in playing against Wentz, Peyton thought they could get to him on blitzes and stunts. Peyton lamented that he didn't think they could do that against Foles. Aikman didn'ti say it outright, but you got the strong impression that Peyton feared Foles more than Wentz One thing to emphasize is that this research started before Foles replaced Wentz, as a project to see why the offense was struggling. I was leaning towards Wentz because of youth and skill set but now, I think I offer them both in trade and see what each would bring us and how much each would cost and go from there. I was never going to offer him an extension next year, b/c we still have a year until we have to do that. My previous reason was we need the cap resources for now. We can deal with next year then. After reading this, I don't pay him next year till I see how he is this year. How the hell did you extrapolate so much from an article that was so one sided?
Read this piece from the Inky by Marcus Hayes, and maybe send your post to Mr. Cox on Twitter, he has invited folks to offer up their opinions.
If nothing else, the remarkable PhillyVoice story by Joe Santoliquito that painted Carson Wentz as a selfish, petulant hothead certainly provided a distraction from the officiating controversies in Sunday’s NFL conference championship games.
It was remarkable for its timing — a week after the Eagles' season ended, and on a holiday morning. It was remarkable for its allegations — several teammates and other sources, all unnamed, voicing different degrees of dissatisfaction with The Chosen One.
We’re not saying it was inaccurate. Just incomplete, and sensationalized.
It also was remarkable for what it lacked.
0From a journalistic standpoint, there is little reason to question the veracity of the comments nor the method by which they were gathered. Santoliquito has been a solid journalist in Philadelphia for years; in fact, he has been employed by this company.
However, journalistically, balance and fairness are lacking in the story. Intentionally.
The story was published Monday morning. An Eagles source said the site left a voicemail just minutes before it was posted. Santoliquito admitted Monday afternoon that he left a voicemail just 40 minutes before it was published, then wrote in the story that the Eagles did not reply to his voicemail.
This not only is unacceptable, but seeking comment in this manner was unnecessary. He could have spoken to the team and Wentz several times during his reporting process.
Santoliquito wrote, and told me Monday, that he spent “two months” mining sources and gathering information. Wentz, Foles, and their teammates were available last Monday. Santoliquito was there. Head coach Doug Pederson and general manager Howie Roseman were available Tuesday.
None of them was asked to comment on the characterizations.
Santoliquito said he wasn’t finished with his reporting on the story until last Monday night, which was after Wentz spoke. He said he did not attend the Pederson/Roseman press conference on Tuesday. That doesn’t matter. That was almost a week before the story ran. It is simply unacceptable to not give the principals reasonable time to respond.
Santoliquito now realizes this:
“I should have,” Santoliquito told me.
When contacted by the Inquirer and Daily News on Monday, the Eagles declined to comment.
The rest of the story seems ... overblown. Not false. Not inaccurate. Just overblown.
Yes, Wentz can be prickly. Team sources told the Inquirer and Daily News for months that they had been concerned with his demeanor, especially while he was sidelined by a knee injury he suffered in Game 13 of the 2017 season. Those concerns lessened this season, even after he was sidelined with back injury, also after Game 13.
Yes, Wentz can be stubborn, and he can be headstrong, and he can be a control freak. He has resisted suggestions from Pederson and former offensive coordinator Frank Reich that he alter his sometimes-reckless style of play. This is well-documented.
He can be dismissive, but to describe him as selfish is probably inaccurate; he is more self-reliant, and that can be an obstacle. He also is 26. Frankly, it describes the millennial archetype.
The story gave the impression of an arrogant semi-diva who isn’t as humble as he seems to be. Well, that sounds a lot like Tom Brady.
Pretty sure Eagles fans wouldn’t mind if Wentz turned into Tom Brady.
If any of that bothers anyone — and it probably shouldn’t — then the real issue does not concern what Wentz is, which — even according to this story — would be a relatively typical franchise quarterback. Rather, it concerns what Wentz isn’t.
Wentz isn’t Nick Foles. He also isn’t perfect. (Neither is Foles.)
Wentz is no messiah, despite that “Ginger Jesus” nickname.
He’s just a pretty good dude, who does pretty good things both on the field and off it, at a pretty young age. He’s massively talented, he’s a good teammate, he’s a committed professional, and he appears to be a very good citizen.
Does that mean every teammate will agree with and endorse every decision he makes on the field? Does that mean every coach and every member of the support staff will get along with him? Does that mean he will have a unanimous caucus throughout the franchise for the entire time he plays in the NFL? Of course not.
Were there times this season when Wentz favored Zach Ertz, consciously or otherwise? Absolutely. So what? All great quarterbacks have favorites. Besides, the connection worked.
Pederson admitted that he simplified the offense three times — after the Game 10 loss at New Orleans, during the Game 11 win against the Giants, and after the Game 13 loss — while Wentz was running it, or was expected to run it (he did not play after Game 13). This isn’t news. It’s recorded history.
The story also implies that Foles never argues with his coaches. And that is absurd.
Tweets from Fletcher Cox, Lane Johnson, Brandon Brooks, Ertz, and Nate Sudfeld quickly defended Wentz.
Reading through this Carson Wentz thing and as a leader on this team none of that is true Carson is a great teammate and great player we are all behind him 100% he’s our guy and will come back and prove the world wrong. If you got a problem feel free to @ me I’ll respond
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10:13 AM - Jan 21, 2019
Whoever wrote that article needs to check their "sources". #fakenews
Carson has been and is our leader and our QB. Y'all know where to find me if you have any issues.#flyeaglesfly
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10:55 AM - Jan 21, 2019
All of that support might make Wentz feel better; however, while his teammates might offer their personal perspectives, those perspectives should not diminish the perspectives of other teammates and team sources.
Wentz will always try to play, even if he is hurt. He’s a warrior.
He will always try to run the plays he wants to run, even if his coaches or teammates don’t agree. He will always do what he thinks is best.
And he might be not always be right. And he might not always be nice.
He might even be a little jealous of Foles, now a Philly demigod.
He might think his ideas are better than Pederson’s, forever this town’s preeminent football genius.
But Wentz’s intentions will always be pure. He will always want to win, and he will always do everything he can to that end.
That doesn’t make him controversial, or detrimental.
Just human.
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Post by rumply on Jan 22, 2019 4:49:05 GMT -5
Click bait if ever I saw it, potential franchise qb maybe has ego issues? Well I never!!
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Post by One on Jan 22, 2019 10:13:25 GMT -5
More players speak out on Wentz.  Kelce: This appears to be a typical piece intended more to attract clicks ($) than to paint an accurate picture. These are not the droids you're looking for. Move along. |
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Post by One on Jan 22, 2019 10:23:53 GMT -5
And this ... Parks addresses other points in the article too. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 22, 2019 21:13:15 GMT -5
The writer was on WIP with Angelo this morning and he got cross examined pretty good by Angelo and Al.
A few things. He said he regretted not giving the Eagles management more time to respond. He only gave them less than an hour before it went to press.
Interestingly, he said he didn't say anything to Wentz or the players on locker cleanout day, because he was still waiting for a significant source to validate the quotes of the other 8 sources. He said that the source was significant enough, that he wouldn't have gone to press if that source didn't validate it. They didn't focus on that and didn't ask him about it. Not that I expect it to change any opinions, but I wonder if it was a member of the Eagles coaching staff who confirmed the reports, would that matter. Probably not.
Lastly, he's gotten the usual death threats with his address included for writing such a thing so that will teach him.
My question is this. He goes into his research before Wentz was injured, fully expecting the reason for the offenses decline to be Groh. Then a bunch of guys have the same reasons, Wentz, as the problem. Even if he dismisses it, he then sees Foles go on a run, and players very enthused to put it mildly, that Foles is at the helm.
As a journalist, what is he supposed to do with that information? As a fan, what do you want him to do with that information?
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Post by One on Jan 22, 2019 22:07:50 GMT -5
As a journalist, what is he supposed to do with that information? As a fan, what do you want him to do with that information? Maybe try to find another side to the story. There are a few pretty influential players who called bullshit on the article, did he talk to them? If he did, either they said one thing in private and another on the record or he just didn't include their version. My guess is that when a player or two changed the story for him it became way too juicy to abandon. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 23, 2019 5:40:46 GMT -5
Unnamed sources hurts the story, no doubt, but you can understand why they were unnamed, right?
When the head coach announces that Carson is the future, it is easy for all the named people to come forward.
It would be interesting to know if any of those who recently spoke out, were asked before and if so, what their response was then. You know he can't say anything.
I wish Angelo and Co would have asked if anyone had a different opinion at the time and if he surpressed those opinions in his story.
My hunch that the source being a coach who resulted in him having enough to print the story lends more credibility IMO.
If you listened closely to him on WIP, you were able to find out that some of those who spoke out were skill position players and that his final Monday source was a member of the coaching staff. Later shows on WIP picked up on the fact that they were skilled players pissed b/c they didn't get the ball, but nobody made the coach connection.
These weren't made up quotes and if having this come out now makes Carson change, then good. I don't want a McNabb saga perpetuating.
I think in the long run, we'll be better for it.
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Post by realityfan on Jan 23, 2019 12:55:41 GMT -5
It has certainly been and interesting saga. As i watched Mahomes I was reminded of a call I heard on WIP where the caller, early in the season, mentioned that Mahomes might be better and the host, an evening guy, trotted out that Wentz was the best of all young Qbs. This thread kind of reminds me of that call. Full disclosure, I did not want to trade away the farm for Wentz but his play in years on and 2 changed my mind. That being said, there is no question that Foles brought some change of attitude to the team. Whether that was from a deja vu shot or he just inspires more confidence we do not know but it was tangible. It may be that Wentz was trying too hard this year but he was not the same. Was it the knee? Maybe, or perhaps Reich being gone? That would lend credence to the Wentz ego trip. I agree with Mikey. It may be a smack in face that Wentz needed if he is an ego problem.
I just don't think that it is as bad as the article suggests but it is also not just little issue either. Someone said these things.....
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 23, 2019 13:13:27 GMT -5
What's up RF?
Good to see you around.
Glad you followed the bread crumbs to get here.
Hope all is well.
I agree that the Wentz thing needs monitoring.
Hopefully it will be an impetus for change.
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Post by One on Jan 23, 2019 13:33:40 GMT -5
It has certainly been and interesting saga. As i watched Mahomes I was reminded of a call I heard on WIP where the caller, early in the season, mentioned that Mahomes might be better and the host, an evening guy, trotted out that Wentz was the best of all young Qbs. This thread kind of reminds me of that call. Full disclosure, I did not want to trade away the farm for Wentz but his play in years on and 2 changed my mind. That being said, there is no question that Foles brought some change of attitude to the team. Whether that was from a deja vu shot or he just inspires more confidence we do not know but it was tangible. It may be that Wentz was trying too hard this year but he was not the same. Was it the knee? Maybe, or perhaps Reich being gone? That would lend credence to the Wentz ego trip. I agree with Mikey. It may be a smack in face that Wentz needed if he is an ego problem. I just don't think that it is as bad as the article suggests but it is also not just little issue either. Someone said these things..... Watching Mahomes reminds me a little of a young Michael Vick. Eye popping talents that he relies on in place of study and technique. Maybe not, just my initial impression. |
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Post by hankey on Jan 23, 2019 14:10:08 GMT -5
Watching Mahomes reminds me a little of a young Michael Vick. Eye popping talents that he relies on in place of study and technique. Maybe not, just my initial impression. He had a phenomenal year, but I would attribute his success more to Reid's system and lack of a scouting report on him. Defenses adjusted to Vick pretty quickly (thank you JJ), and from then on the only real success he had was.....in Reid's system, many years later. I think this year was the equivalent of Foles's 27-2 year. It ain't happening again, though the Chiefs will still win their usual 10+ games next year. |
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Post by realityfan on Jan 24, 2019 14:19:36 GMT -5
Thinking that Mahomes was a one year wonder is, imho, shortsighted. What he did was not merely athletically related. Sure that helped him but he did so much more and things that Wentz still does not do. Wentz was good against the blitz early and has since regressed. Mahomes does just about everything well. He has great touch deep, can react to a broken pocket, throws the screen pass well and runs their offense extremely well. I concede that he has great weapons but his year was really amazing. The kid has a great attitude and a great head on his shoulders.
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Post by realityfan on Jan 24, 2019 14:20:40 GMT -5
By the way....yes, I was able to follow the trail to the new board and thanks to x for all his efforts and those who are assisting him...truly selfless gents.
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Post by hankey on Jan 24, 2019 15:33:58 GMT -5
These weren't made up quotes and if having this come out now makes Carson change, then good. I don't want a McNabb saga perpetuating. I think in the long run, we'll be better for it. Personally, few things piss me off more than 'anonymous sources' in an article clearly designed to cause controversy. It seems to be the hallmark of journalism these days. If I were Doug I'd ban Santoliq-whatever the hell his name is from access to any Eagles facility forever. I'd also have a very unpleasant meeting with my coaching staff and then players. This kind of shit needs to be sorted out in the locker room, and not on WIP based on anonymous sources given to a 4th tier sportswriter trying to make a name for himself. This is Eskin-esque, but at least Eskin made his bones somewhere along the line. I will say I really appreciated Al Morganti putting the screws to this guy near the end - obviously the story was designed to create controversy as the team is about to enter a crucial off-season regarding their future QB. |
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Post by nephillymike on Jan 25, 2019 21:03:43 GMT -5
Mikey Miss had the editor from Philly Voice on and he questioned him pretty good.
The editor thought that the headlines and quotes they highlighted were the thing that created the most controversy.
I look at it this way.
If they got a few supportive quotes from some players, waited to get an assumed rebuttal from the team, this would still be a story.
He had a story. He didn't go in predisposed that it was Carson, but that it was Groh.
Remember, they were waiting for a "knockout" source to confirm the story or they wouldn't have printed it. That knockout source is an offensive coach.
Despite the lack of reporting protocol, that's a big story.
I'm glad he had the balls to print it. He will be black balled from here on, but it took guts.
And having printed it, Wentz is more likely better for it.
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Post by hankey on Jan 25, 2019 23:41:04 GMT -5
I'm glad he had the balls to print it. He will be black balled from here on, but it took guts. And having printed it, Wentz is more likely better for it. Ugh. 'Courage.' That has nothing to do with why this 4th tier hack printed this. He wanted to make a name for himself, and create a controversy. Fuck him. I hope his career ends and he ends up as an intern for Eskin, making up stories about how Pro-Bowl QB's can't remember a playbook. |
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Post by One on Jan 26, 2019 6:08:01 GMT -5
He had a story. He didn't go in predisposed that it was Carson, but that it was Groh. Remember, they were waiting for a "knockout" source to confirm the story or they wouldn't have printed it. That knockout source is an offensive coach. Despite the lack of reporting protocol, that's a big story. I'm glad he had the balls to print it. He will be black balled from here on, but it took guts. And having printed it, Wentz is more likely better for it. Who knew who this writer was before this article? I didn't. He writes a critical article about a young, franchise player when he's coming off his second season ending injury and his replacement is being canonized and presumably let go. He says the article started off about the OC. To me, that's still the story that should have been written and including Wentz would be fair game. Why did he abandon a good premise completely? In my view, this is an out-and-out hatchet job on Wentz intended to make a name for himself. I think that worked, but maybe not as he intended. To me, this is clearly stating the article was intended to be about Wentz, not Groh. How convenient! Joseph Santoliquito, a PhillyVoice Contributor, spoke to a handful of players (7 or 8 players of roughly 82 ... active, IR and PS) plus a couple of people "close to the team" who don't want to go on the record. Not one single source is named. Are those players some who were in one day and out the next due to injuries? Because the names we recognize all came out against the article, both on offense and defense. Are the guys "close to the team" other hack reporters who may have had some ax to grind? From the start the guy doesn't treat his real subject objectively, but goes right at him, guns blaring. Again, how convenient they were waiting for some unnamed (again) person to confirm. It didn't take balls or guts to print this unless you mean it takes balls or guts to voluntarily put your head in a noose. I'm not objecting to a critical article about Wentz or any other subject but this was a one-sided character assassination. All too familiar shit in this era of "reporting." You may be right that it will make Wentz better, but not because he was exposed, because he was publicly ridiculed. |
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Post by rumply on Jan 26, 2019 17:21:37 GMT -5
hear hear
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